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Gatsby Snape
I haven't posted anything for the Snape fans in a while (yes, the last few chapters of Severus Evans, Year One, are being written) so here's an essay I posted over on Snapedom. It started as a few notes to reply to Torino's question of the week about Severus in Fanon, and turned into an essay covering my views (to date) about the character in general as well as about how he is depicted in fanon. Not everyone on my f-list with an interest in Severus Snape reads Snapedom, so I am re-posting here for your reading and analytical pleasure. ;-)


My View of Severus, and of Severus in Fanon

I haven't read nearly as much fanfic as some of you have, but between what fanfic I have read and the numerous meta/essay discussions I've taken part in, online and in real life, I guess I have picked up on a few fanon interpretations of Severus Snape, after all. This is long, but probably not comprehensive: I'm sure I'll think of more points after I've posted this.

Many thanks to everyone who's posted their thoughts, so far, on the subject of Severus in Fanon! Some of what I've written clearly reflects your influence. What follows, of course, is purely my opinion: in some cases well-reasoned, in other cases just reflecting my personal preferences and tastes. While I do offer my views of how Severus would or would not interact in sexual relationships, I kept it general--except in the section about Lily, of course--and tried to avoid stepping on any specific "shipping" toes.


How I see Severus:


One thing to keep in mind, in all discussion of "fanon" vs. "canon," is that what would be "in-character" for Severus depends greatly upon his age and the context in which the scene takes place. What might be wildly out-of-character behavior for thirty-something Severus might be plausibly in-character for young-teen Severus, and vice-versa.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Nerd!Severus, revealed to us in "The Prince's Tale": socially awkward, intellectually curious, inquisitive, insecure, yearning to belong; an inwardly sensitive misfit who gets knocked around for being superficially "weird" and so develops defenses, and tends to withdraw and avoid giving opportunity to inflict further harm upon him. He wants recognition; he wants power; he wants to be special, appreciated, loved. He wants to be calm and controlled and ruled by the head, but in truth he is led by his heart--and he hates this, because it makes him feel very, very vulnerable.

He seems to be a quiet person at heart, fundamentally gentle, easily wounded, tending toward possessiveness because of early experiences of material and emotional lack. I see him being rather simple in terms of emotional and romantic desires: to love and to be loved. He would be the conventional working-class man in some ways, but with the verbal aptitude he has developed over the years he would also be capable of communicating in words as well as actions. I don't see him as the "man of few words" some people do; sometimes he is taciturn, and sometimes he is quite verbal, to the point of great eloquence. And sometimes, when under duress, he becomes a stammering explosion of emotion!

I think his verbal eloquence would emerge in an intimate relationship, given time; he would not, as an adult, remain the awkward adolescent of "The Prince's Tale," except maybe at first when he is still uncertain about the other person. As an adult I think he'd tend to just hold back and proceed with caution until he gradually "warmed up" to the relationship.

In general, I see the "snarky" side of him as a surface defense against feelings of emotional and social vulnerability. With people who treat him well, the defenses slip away, at least a little, and what is revealed is someone who seems to be genuinely caring and concerned for the well-being of others. But if he feels threatened, watch out! The nastiness re-emerges, in self-defense.

The snark is what he does to protect himself. It is not who he is.

I also think a great deal of his nasty side in canon is due to the simple fact that he is miserable and feels trapped in the duties he promised, under duress, that he would perform. (Grief over Lily, and his role in her death, of course also plays a role, here.) The fact that he does perform them, and does not at some point say "screw you" and stalk off, indicates to me that he has an internal code of honor and ethics that drives him. He might behave irascibly, but at heart he seeks to do the right thing and to keep his word.

One of my personal convictions is that we would see a very different, more favorable side of Severus in situations where he is liked, respected, and feels comfortable and safe--and free. I also believe, very strongly, that there was likely more to his life than what we saw of him in canon: People have been quick to assume he led an utterly miserable life without respite, but the misery he felt at Hogwarts and over being Harry's sworn protector--not to mention over fear of Voldemort's return and rule--does not necessarily translate into finding NO friendships or lovers over the years. I'm pretty adamant on this point, as most of you know. ;-) In real life, very few people's lives are entirely Hopeless Wastelands or Gardens of Eden. Most lives are a mixture of sunlight and shadow, and I suspect that Severus had his share of sunlight amidst the shadows. He simply chose not to show it to Harry, or to anyone else within the Harry point of view, most of whom were people Severus neither liked nor trusted.

Others have pointed out the none-too-subtle ethnic stereotyping in the depiction of Severus--"sallow" skin, "greasy" black hair, "hooked" nose, "angular" face--contrasting with the "wholesome" image of the perfect Anglo-Saxon English boy. This is one more area in which he would feel marginalized and misfit in the culture of Hogwarts and among the biases of the wizarding world.

Canonically, I see Severus as being straight. Until the last book it was still an open question for me--I confess, I was hoping it would be revealed that he and Remus had a history--and of course it's possible to interpret his love of Lily in other ways that leave the way open for him to be gay or bisexual. As a rule, though, I tend to write him straight. For purposes of fiction, I'm willing to suspend disbelief and pretend Severus is gay if the story focuses on exploring him psychologically, especially how he would interact in the development of a romantic relationship. It's also a chance to explore just how welcoming the wizarding world is towards gay people: A lot of fanfic seems to assume a much more open and tolerant environment than I pick up from reading canon!

Other interpretations of Severus which I like include:

  • Working Class Hero Severus - seeing his working class background as influential in shaping his personality and character and standing in society. I wish I had a handle on Yorkshire accents, because I would LOVE to "hear" him speaking (in a tenor voice, by the way) in his "native" accent, going back to his roots and dropping the "refinements" of his wizarding education.

  • Fuck the Wizarding World Severus - in which he turns his back on the wizarding world and reintegrates (or, perhaps, integrates for the first time) into Muggle life, incorporating his magical gifts and practice into living among the world at large instead of confining himself within the small and insular "magical" subculture.


I find the idea of Severus in jeans and a t-shirt to be very, very appealing, and not only for prurient reasons. ;-) To me, it symbolizes him becoming relaxed, at peace with his Muggle heritage, and comfortable in his own skin. (In a post-war AU in which he becomes more at peace with himself, I think he also would expand his clothing choices beyond all-black.) And, too, I see him as innately more casual than dressy or elegant in style. He is not shabby or neglected or unkempt, merely comfortable and casual and free of the robes of wizardry (his costume) and everything that those robes represented. And, after all, he is a child of the 70s!

As a child of the 70s, he would, I think, be partial to the music of the 60s and the 70s: Beatles, John Lennon, Elton John, et al. I don't really see him getting into metal, still less the newer forms of music that some (younger?) writers have him listening to. Social protest singer-songwriter and rock of the era would be more his style. I can see him being really into John Lennon's solo work, and maybe even identifying with John Lennon, the original "working class hero."

I've grown quite fond of post-war AU fiction in which Severus Lives! So much so, that I sometimes forget that's not canon. Not yet, anyway. ;-)

One theme that recurs in the fiction I write and read is seeing Severus make peace with himself, and with his past, find some kind of inner healing, and move on with his life. That tends to favor post-war AU scenarios, naturally, although exploring his life between the gaps in canon is another way to explore this theme. I think that's why I also lean towards having him leave the wizarding world and build a life among Muggles, again: It just seems more conducive to healing the wounds he acquired in the wizarding world. I'm also rather put off the wizarding world at this point!

Oh, yes, and last, but not least, in my personal fanon the man should be granted the dignity of being referred to by his first name, Severus, not by the impersonality, bordering on contempt, of merely being "Snape"--unless the narrative point of view dictates otherwise. Calling him Professor Snape, of course, is another matter entirely, though I think post-war he would rather you didn't. Because post-war, in my fanon, he gets as far away from Hogwarts, and from Britain's wizarding world, as humanly possible! "Good-bye, Yellow Brick Road," indeed.


What doesn't work for me, to some degree or other:


Really Really Ugly Severus - People taking at face value the image of Severus we receive through Harry: assuming that the horrible, ugly, greasy git we see through Harry's eyes is how everyone in the world sees Severus. And, being so ugly, "Who'd love Snape?" Looking objectively at his physical description, we see someone who certainly does not live up to Hollywood beauty standards, but who just as certainly sounds no worse than many people in real life. Big nose? Crooked, discolored teeth? Oily hair? Meh. Lots of people have one or more of these traits. Who really cares? Without the bias of those who know and dislike him, would he really stand out, or would he be just another ordinary face in the crowd? How would he look to someone who loved him?

Bath What Bath Severus - People assuming that "greasy" hair and "oily" skin means the man never went near bath water. As I recall, we don't get any suggestion in the books (except maybe in childhood flashbacks, where he was clearly neglected and impoverished - perhaps no indoor plumbing at home?) that Severus was dirty or unbathed, especially as an adult. I read him as simply having oily skin and hair, the kind that gets slick within eight hours of being washed. And yes, it's important to analyze the "greasy hair" business, because it's given so damned much emphasis in the books!

Severus the Sharp-dressed Man - Severus is elegant, cultured, refined, and a very dressy man. No casual day for Severus! I'm guessing this is a leftover from the pre-HBP "Snape Manor" characterization. But what do we actually see in the books? Besides his working-class roots and haphazard castoffs in childhood, revealed in the last book, all through the books we see him wearing billowy, too-large black robes as an adult. And he wears boots. That hardly sounds like a fashion plate, even in the wizarding world. In Muggle clothing, I picture Severus being casual to the point of indifferent--not so indifferent as to wear a woman's blouse, but throwing together jeans and t-shirts, or casual trousers and shirts, with no great attention to detail. Of course, I usually picture Severus in Muggle wear in a relaxed setting, one in which he has made some kind of peace with himself and has distanced himself from the wizarding world and all of its machinations. In canon, I think he chooses his clothing to make himself appear imposing--which suggests the debunking of another fanon meme.

Super Tall Severus - A man who swathes himself in billowing yards of black cloth, all the better to swirl for dramatic effect, and wears boots instead of shoes, probably does not have an imposing physique. He was small and thin as a child and youth. My impression is that he still has a slight build, even as an adult: not so short as to be remarked upon for shortness, but on the short side of average. I picture him as being about 5'8" (5'10" being the average for Caucasian males) and rather wiry in build. He feels small and insignificant, and it shows in the way he dresses himself, simultaneously commanding attention with and hiding beneath the yards of black cloth.

24/7 Nasty Asshole Severus - Severus has no kinder and gentler side; he's a relentlessly nasty bastard who really really likes to inflict pain and torment upon other people, just because he enjoys watching them suffer. There is no soft heart, just sarcasm and meanness all the way through. This is another effect of believing the view through the Harry/Marauders Filter, rather than looking at the whole picture and the whole person. He behaves differently in different contexts; for most of the books, Harry sees him in one, not very flattering context. As I noted in my "Severus the Teacher" essay, how someone behaves in the classroom is not necessarily how they behave in their personal lives outside of the classroom. We only get a few glimpses, here and there, of the gentler side of Severus emerging.

Truly Evil Severus - a.k.a. Severus as Snidely Whiplash. Bwahahaha!!! Ummm... no. No. The man who worries about damaging his soul if he kills Albus Dumbledore, even as an act of mercy killing which will also prevent Draco Malfoy from harming his own soul, is not evil. The man who feels pangs of conscience over lying (even if For The Greater Good) is not evil. The man who puts his life on the line, time and again, to save Harry, and who watches out for the other students as well, is not evil. The man who sings a healing cure to an injured Draco Malfoy, who prepares wolfsbane potion for a man he dislikes, who fusses and frets over Albus Dumbledore as he does what he can to heal him from a terrible curse, is not evil. The man who can never shake the guilt of having done something that led to his childhood best friend's death is not evil. Based on how Dumbledore phrases his response--will it harm your soul to help an old man--I wonder if Severus ever, in fact, ever directly killed another human being before he killed Albus Dumbledore, or if he was merely the witness to deaths and contributor of information which enabled others to kill. Surely Dumbledore would have reminded him of past murders, had Severus committed them! Severus does not act like a man with a history of murder. He is guilt-ridden over simply being a passive witness to murder, over lives he could not save. He does not act like a man who delights in committing murder or other acts of evil. He joined the Death Eaters out of youthful insecurity and a desire to prove himself powerful and gain recognition--not out of a fundamentally "evil" temperament that enjoyed tormenting others.

Hopelessly FUBAR Severus - In which he is depicted, basically, as being a walking DSM-IV. Severus has shortcomings; Severus has issues; Severus has blind spots and points of dysfunction. But I don't think he's completely gone from the realm of mental health; he's simply wounded, and seeking alleviation of his wounds. I also agree that, while he was insecure, and would be hesitant to rush into the risk of a relationship that might not work out, he probably did not go through life thinking himself Utterly Unworthy of Being Loved or Even Getting Laid.

Hangin' Out with the Ho's Severus - Severus gets laid. Early and often. Courtesy of the friendly women of Knockturn Alley, or a red-light district in Muggle London, or anywhere a man can buy a woman's attentions for an hour. I guess this bit of fanon assumes that no woman would voluntarily sleep with Severus. (See "Really Really Ugly Severus," above.) I have a hard time believing Severus would pay for sex. First, because I think it would go against his own inner code of honor: He seems to respect women, generally speaking, which tends to contraindicate collaborating in their prostitution. I think his pride would also prevent him from paying for sex, precisely because it would say to him, I'm so ugly and awful I can't even get a woman to sleep with me without paying for it. He'd brew up an extra-large batch of lotion for, *ahem*, personal use before resorting to paying for sex! Most importantly, I don't think he would go to a woman merely to alleviate physical needs: Contrary to the popular image that for men sex is Just Physical, for many men it has a very strongly psychological and emotional component. (Anyone ever have to deal with a male friend or relative in the throes of a breakup?) I think Severus would be seeking to have his NON-physical needs met at least as much as his physical, hence, at a minimum, the sex (even if a "casual" encounter) would have to be voluntary on the woman's part, not just doing her job for a paying customer.

Romanticized Rape - This bothers me in ANY fic, involving Severus or not. Rape is an act of violence; it is assault. It is not fodder for hot fantasies and romantic bonding between perpetrator and victim. Severus committing rape is completely out of character. Severus being a victim of rape is, unfortunately, plausible, at least as a what-if scenario. I can very well see James Potter being capable of rape. But there would be nothing sexy or romantic about it.

Dungeon Master Severus - In which the dungeons of Hogwarts become a lair for Sexual Adventures with the Potions Master. I just don't see Severus engaging in any kind of domination scenarios or role playing or anything pushing boundaries or involving violence, mutually consenting or otherwise--certainly not with students. (See below.) Yeah, he wears black, and yeah, he wears boots, and yeah, he works in a dungeon, but in terms of his actual personality, versus his persona, Severus really strikes me as a fairly conservative man. He would be looking for fairly conventional things from a sexual relationship. He'd be a straightforward love-and-affection kind of guy, not mushy, but quietly and deeply affectionate. And not likely to take the initiative or be the "leading" partner. Frankly, I think Severus would be kind of shy, until he got comfortable and secure in the relationship. The Dungeon Master scenario assumes a degree of self-confidence that Severus does not appear to me to possess.

Creepy Child Molester Severus - In which a sexually frustrated and romantically deprived and possibly also mentally disturbed Severus lusts after the jail bait, big time. This sounds more like adolescent teacher-fixation fantasies than anything resembling in-character conduct for Severus Snape. I see Severus having a very strong sense of honor and boundaries regarding conduct towards the students; anything he does in canon that seems "mean" or "controlling" is within the bounds of his role as a teacher, at least in light of a "strict" or "authoritarian" disciplinary approach. (An approach I personally do not advocate, by the way.) If anything, any student so much as hinting at wanting sex with him would be dealt with summarily, and told in no uncertain terms--perhaps kindly but firmly if in Slytherin, and with varying degrees of scorn and derision if in one of the other houses, especially Gryffindor--that such contact is wholly inappropriate and Not Going To Happen.

Child Hater Severus - If Severus isn't lusting after the kiddies, then he's totally hating their guts: He hates children, and--assuming any woman would even sleep with his ugly greasy-git self--he would never ever ever have children of his own. What I said above about his conventional and conservative temperament would also apply, I think, to how he views children and family: The part of him that yearns for security would find appeal in an idealized "home and family I never had as a child." As a teacher, beneath the superficial irascibility Severus really does seem to take his responsibilties seriously. He's prepared, he's organized, he expects his students to apply themselves and work to learn what they need to learn. And he watches out for their safety, time and again, and demonstrates concern when they are injured in Potions accidents or otherwise endangered. Severus is not crabby and mean because he hates children; he is crabby and mean because he hates himself, carrying a heavy burden of guilt for which he has not yet found absolution.

Pining Eternal Virgin Severus - He'll never get over Lily. Never. He'll live and die a virgin, in tribute to the Only Woman He Will Ever Love. I don't find this scenario particularly romantic or appealing; I find it to be tragic and repugnant. I am more inspired by the view of Severus as a mixture of functional and dysfunctional, partly healed and getting on with life the best he could, integrating his youthful love of Lily into his mature life, and partly still wracked with guilt and hindered somewhat by that guilt. That seems to fit with the mixture of functionality and dysfunctionality that we see in canon. Healing and moving on is inspiring to me; staying eternally stuck in guilt and obsession over a dead woman who had rejected him years before her death is not.

Note: I realize this last point is probably a critique of canon as well as fanon. *sigh*

Comments

[info]hobgoblinn wrote:
Jun. 5th, 2008 10:23 pm (UTC)
whoa-- great essay. And your last line-- if you hadn't said it, I was going to-- the Pining Eternal virgin who seems to be depicted in canon is the reason Why most of us write fanfic in the first place.

I'd be interested in your take on Snape as someone who, because of the abuse and powerlessness he endured as a child and later, would have been seduced, for a time, but the Darkness. Can you see conditions under which Snape might have become a Death Eater in earnest (probably a Death Eater in an AU to canon, because in canon they don't seem that ideologically coherent or scary, really) and if so, how do you see him getting out? I have a hard time believing guilt over Lily's death, Alone, could create the honorable man he later becomes and keep him going in his thankless tasks for Years.

I'm probably going to work up a post on this this weekend in response to a couple of great concrits I got in reviews to Ch8 of "In Loco Parentis"-- I'd be honored if you'd drop by and weigh in. I'll comment on your journal with a link if I remember it.

But right now Wee Hob thinks it is Time To Go Swimming. Thanks again for the well thought out and well written essay.
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 12:08 am (UTC)
Thank you. I'm glad you found it helpful! And so glad you're with me on the Pining Eternal Virgin thing. I realize there are, potentially, constructive reasons why people might choose celibacy (though I prefer the idea of having some experience before deciding to give it up) but Severus as Pining Eternally Over Lily is not one of them.

Can you see conditions under which Snape might have become a Death Eater in earnest

Mmmm. Honestly, he really seems to have too much integrity. He strikes more as "why don't you just leave me alone if you don't like me" than Truly Evil. On the other hand, I guess I might find it plausible, at least as an AU interpretation, if he snapped and wanted revenge, a la young men who go on shooting rampages at their high schools. But I'd see him going after the people who hurt him more than innocent people.

It's really much, much easier for me to believe that Severus was just naive and idealistic and blinkered as all hell, and subconsciously continued to block out any aspects of the DEs that didn't fit his aspirations--until the rude awakening of the threat to Lily snapped him out of his dreamy denial.

probably a Death Eater in an AU to canon, because in canon they don't seem that ideologically coherent or scary, really

*snerk* I know what you mean. I mean, when Voldie tells us he was discussing Sev's sex life with him, that's when the whole thing really jumped the shark, once and for all.
Someone did a really good satirical cartoon about it--was it [info]pojypojy? Where Voldie is acting like a concerned mother figure asking if he's getting any, and Severus is thinking, oh just shut up about it. ;-)

Ch8 of "In Loco Parentis"-- I'd be honored if you'd drop by and weigh in.

I didn't know you had a WIP. *checks* Oh, hey, I never added you to my f-list. That might be why. I'm so organized...

Anyway, give me a link to the story. Can't promise anything, given that I'm STILL relying on the library for Internet time, but I'm on vacation this coming week so I'll have more leisure, at least.
(no subject) - [info]hobgoblinn - Jun. 13th, 2008 01:00 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]bohemianspirit - Jun. 14th, 2008 09:38 pm (UTC) Expand
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the cartoon is sydpad's- - [info]mary_j_59 - Jun. 15th, 2008 07:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: the cartoon is sydpad's- - [info]bohemianspirit - Jun. 15th, 2008 09:14 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]green_skiddles wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 12:39 am (UTC)
Once again, you and I have the same Snape in mind! (Even the same height and tastes in music!) The only differences I had was that I Snape pegged as a Manchester man and very likely Catholic. (Seriously, go watch "Life On Mars" for what Manchester looks like!) I don't mind Snape ugly, so long as it is done realistically. I'm no fan of Quasimodo!Snape, but I'm definitely don't want Bishonen!Snape either!
http://www.wizards.com/uploadedImages/DnD/RPG/Articles/Gallery/Art/50062.jpg
See? Bishie Sparkle kills.
Also thank you for bringing up all those Un-Snapes, I couldn't agree with you more! Especially "Creepy Child Molester Severus", my personal in-joke with is that one of the real reasons Dumbledore hired Snape was that Slughorn was starting to get "Too Friendly" with the Slug Club. Which is funnier when you do what I do and pretend the Book 7 didn't happen...
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 12:16 am (UTC)
Heh. Some of this must reasonably be in the text, then, if you and I and a number of others are all seeing the same thing.

The only differences I had was that I Snape pegged as a Manchester man and very likely Catholic.

Oh, hell, I'm a Minnesotan. I don't know Manchester from Yorkshire. I just know they're both Northern England, working class, and, apparently, Catholic. (I'm told Yorkshire is heavily Catholic--and if you read my "Light Between the Cracks" series, you'll see I have Severus pegged as Catholic, too. I also wrote some meta about that here on my LJ sometime last summer, when we were all first discussing DH.) The consensus among fans seems to be that Severus reflects a Yorkshire background, so that's what I go with. That would be one USEFUL bit JKR could have given us, ya know, instead of some of the dreck she's thrown out in interviews and appearances. ;-)

Your image link didn't work (file not found) so I have no idea what a Bishie version of Severus would look like, but I kind of get the impression it would be Too Cute For Words. Ummm... no. Thanks, but no. I just picture him as a rather homely looking kind of guy, not drop-dead gorgeous, but not hideously ugly, as he appears in the eyes of Harry, either.

And if any character could be plausbily written as a child molestor, I think Slughorn just might be it. He's kinda creepy, for real....
(no subject) - [info]green_skiddles - Jun. 13th, 2008 10:34 pm (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - [info]elethian - Jun. 28th, 2008 07:50 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]mary_j_59 wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 04:07 am (UTC)
Terrific essay! It won't surprise you that I agree with every word. In particular, I also love working class hero Snape, think him a highly ethical person, think him capable of healing and wholeness (though he never achieves it in canon) and HATE rapist Snape and child molester Snape.

And I agree with green skiddles (and with you, actually) that he is Catholic. Manchester is quite possible, but Yorkshire makes more sense to me given the models Rowling was obviously working from - also, the name "Prince" seems to stem from there, and to be common in the Leeds area.

Anyway, great essay. I don't really have a thing to add to it.
[info]pojypojy wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 11:38 pm (UTC)
HATE rapist Snape and child molester Snape.

Really, that's so... ewww. I mean, we *had* our creepyperv!Death Eater with Fenrir and even Bella's crush on Voldemort isn't exactly what I'd call an healthy attraction (although I can't see Voldie in any sexual context. Just... can't. As Tom Riddle maybe. But the snake faced guy? NO WAI). But Snape? PLEASE! That guy was into kinks as much as I am into Grey's Anatomy ;-D
(no subject) - [info]bohemianspirit - Jun. 13th, 2008 12:18 am (UTC) Expand
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 12:27 am (UTC)
Thank you! No, I can't say I'm surprised. ;-) We each have our own personal imprint on how we write Severus in fiction, but we have the same basic template in mind.

think him capable of healing and wholeness (though he never achieves it in canon)

Not as far as we can see. But I guess it depends on what you mean by canon. JKR's intention? Well, yeah, that probably was that, no, he didn't--I mean, this is the woman whose favorite "love stories" are Wuthering Heights and Lolita. Seriously, WTF??? I suppose one could argue Lolita is of literary quality--but a "great LOVE story"? I get the impression that JKR's idea of love is rather dysfunctional.

But another view of "canon" is simply what is written, what is depicted, what is portrayed. Do we have room within there to see some kind of healing and wholeness? Well, I don't see him really being fully "whole," as of the end of canon, because he obviously still suffers a lot of anguish over Lily's death, but I think a case could be made that some healing took place over the years. He's not still the utterly devastated young man that was collapsing in Dumbledore's office right after Lily's death, but the wound is deep enough that when it is triggered, it can still bring him to tears.

One thing I wonder is whether Severus, as intended in canon, ever came to terms with the fact that LILY CHOSE to be with James, or if he used displacement and denial to put all the blame on James--and on himself for calling Lily a "Mudblood."

and HATE rapist Snape and child molester Snape

I think the only reason people write him that way has to do with their own bizarre fetishes rather than with the least hint in canon that he would be that sort of person. I just can't see where it comes from within the text, not even as a plausible alternative interpretation.
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[info]sunsethill wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 06:39 pm (UTC)
Great job. I too wonder what universe some of the fanon Snapes come from. The man we see in DH is an incredibly honorable and praiseworthy character in so many ways. You did a great job showing us that man.
[info]pojypojy wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 11:41 pm (UTC)
Well, I suppose many versions of fanon Snape come from when we didn't know much about him, so many fans either made wild guesses (i.e. Snape Manor) or simply stuck to Harry's "greasy git" vision. Sometimes it's hard to reshape your ideas into canon when you've built up your fanon for years - I've been lucky enough to see most of my predictions about Snape come true, proof that it wasn't impossible to read Rowling's plan for him between the lines. Still, I can understand how fans can cling to their bits of DIY character background :-)
(no subject) - [info]sunsethill - Jun. 7th, 2008 02:32 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 12:31 am (UTC)
Thanks! Yes, I agree, it should have been obvious early on that Severus was an honorable man, whatever else was yet to be revealed about him. He was snarky and snarly but he could have done much, much worse things to people, had he had no self-restraint or inner ethical code. That he did restrain himself (with adolescents! living with them ten months a year! the man is a HERO!!!) should have been a clue that he wasn't really Evil.
[info]pojypojy wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 09:40 pm (UTC)
I must say I agree with 99,9%, except for the fact that Severus totally listened to proto-metal, being an angry teenager and all ;-) Heck, after all most of the Black Sabbath classics date 1970-1971. It's pretty amazing when you think the Beatles split up around that date, because they're apparently worlds apart.
[/end musical digression]

I have a soft spot for Working Class Hero Snape because I called that before it was canon. His desire for recognition (i.e. Order of Merlin) struck me more as a "I worked so hard and therefore I deserve it" than as a "I deserve it because of my birthright".

And of course, as the story progresses, it becomes more apparent, and I think that's also the key of his friendship with the Malfoys and his hatred for James (fights over Lily aside). Being born poor and halfblood, Severus knows too well that being in a situation of disadvantage is not cool. Therefore he works hard to overcome his situation and climb the social ladder. Then he sees a James Potter (or a Sirius Black) who has every kind of social privilege - and apparently shrugs it off/gives it for granted. I can totally see the resentful young Snape thinking "if I were him I'd use all the things I have way better"; in this twisted logic, it makes sense that he might like a Lucius Malfoy better. Because Lucius is *happy* about his privilege and doesn't hide it. Let alone the fact that apparently Malfoy & co. accepted Snape, therefore being not that much of the snobs to him. Idk, just trying to get into Snape's head here :-) because there certainly is a "social revenge" trope in his character, but his association with the upper class folks might look odd at first...
[info]green_skiddles wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 11:31 pm (UTC)
I can really see Severus into Black Sabbath too! BTW, I loved the "Air Guitar Snape" picture you did a while back, it actually made me like Snape/Evans. A long time ago I was on a different forum when the question came up "What kind of music does Snape like?" And the best everybody could come up with was chamber music and boring ass concertos. I was like, "He was a British teenager in the 70's, YOU PEOPLE ARE KILLING ME." Needless to say that was the last time I appeared there.
Also, I think you are dead on with James and Lucius "privilege" thing. James was a total Trust Fund Baby!
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[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 11th, 2008 10:43 pm (UTC)
Music is one of those things I'm not going to worry too much about. There are several possibilities, all of them plausible in one way or another, depending totally on how you guess his leanings to go. My sister suggested he'd prefer really mellow music to escape into, rather than angry music that would just aggravate his anger even more. The one true thing is, PLEASE, people, do not have 1970s Severus listening to 1980s or 1990s music as a teenager!!! ;-)
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[info]randomneses wrote:
Jun. 6th, 2008 09:44 pm (UTC)
I couldn't agree more with most of this and found myself nodding a hell of a lot while on my blackburry. I mostly love angsty virginal Snape who can't get any because I find it funny and its fun to CAPSLOCK about but also I just can't see James as a rapist just because he was a mean 16 year old. But everything else (the clothes and music especially) I agree with.
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 11th, 2008 10:41 pm (UTC)
Thanks. Virginal Snape as humor is one thing. I even wrote a short humor fic on the theme of Severus joining the DEs because he thought he'd get laid. ;-) It's canonizing it as a Noble Romantically Tragic Fate that I can't abide.

also I just can't see James as a rapist just because he was a mean 16 year old

Well, to be fair, I just threw it out as a possibility that seemed plausible, and in the context of seeing it more plausible for, say, James than for Severus. But my reasoning is based more on the view of James as evidencing an abusive personality than "just being mean." YMMV, but many people I've discussed it with have seen a rather darker side to James than simply being prankishly mean and outgrowing it.
(no subject) - [info]randomneses - Jun. 13th, 2008 02:42 am (UTC) Expand
[info]fayzbub wrote:
Jun. 7th, 2008 01:55 am (UTC)
This essay should be required reading for all Snape fanfic writers! All of the interpretations that don't work but are common in fanfic tend to make me cringe as well. Personally I agree with you about the "F**k the Wizarding World Severus" interpretation. If you interested, go to this link:

http://www.fanfiction.net/secure/live_preview.php?storyid=3811011&chapter=1

Thank you for posting this elegant critique of the character of Severus. I came here via Pojypogy's site; very glad I did!
Fayzbub
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 11th, 2008 10:37 pm (UTC)
Thank you! I appreciate your comments.

BTW, I tried to click on the link to the story, but I have to log in to FF.net to view it. Will try again later, when I have time to create a login. I'm thinking a "Fuck the Wizarding World" fest would be a fun one to do--though we'd need another name to get past teh censors. ;-)
[info]spikesminx wrote:
Jun. 7th, 2008 01:33 pm (UTC)
I can very well see James Potter being capable of rape.

LULZ.
[info]spikesminx wrote:
Jun. 7th, 2008 01:41 pm (UTC)
I agree with most of the points in your essay, about the music, his sexual life and all, but that part completely ruined it for me. Sorry.
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[info]mary_j_59 wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 03:47 am (UTC)
No, I actually agree with Bohemianspirit here. I don't think either one of you have fully understood that James was abusing *Lily* in the pensieve scene, as well as bullying Severus. Also, we do know that Severus *actually changed his behavior*, of his own free will. It was *his* decision to go to Dumbledore, not the other way around. We never see James (or Harry) change; we never see him sorry for anything he does or any harm he causes. And James' choices get him, and his wife, killed. They orphan his son and get his best friend sent to jail for 12 years.

Yes, Peter was the traitor, not James. But James turned down Dumbledore as secret keeper because of *his* prejudice. He misjudged Peter (and I do wonder what caused Peter to go to the Death Eaters in the first place.) He had no back up plan and didn't even have his wand in his hand when Voldemort came calling.

That the Death Eaters offered Severus safety and belonging; that they welcomed him when no one else would, does of course, point to a weakness in Severus's character. But I repeat, he left them (and to leave is a death sentence, and takes great courage) of his own will. To my mind, Severus and Regulus are the only true heroes in all this saga, for precisely that reason. They were able to say to themselves: I was wrong. I have to do something to correct the harm I have done. And then they went and did it. We see this in canon. When do we ever see James apologize to anyone or correct any of the harm he did? And he did harm. The Marauders and Dumbledore between them may well have driven young Severus to the Death Eaters.

But James' abusive behaviors towards Lily are very serious, and I do wish you could realize that. And there is no indication at all that he ever changed. I, too, can see him as a date rapist, and of the sort who would never realize he'd done anything wrong.

But his politics were quite definitely better than Severus's when the boys were 16. No question about that. Severus, to my mind, had the advantage when the boys were 20, having changed his politics for the better. So yes, his change was more serious and deeper than James'. That is why he is, to my mind, a better person. He grew up, at least somewhat. From what we see in canon, James never did. I'm not at all sure he had the capacity to.

Let me be very clear here. You dislike Snape because he joined a racist organization. Fair enough. But do you see that James is every bit as racist, in his way, as Severus? He is extremely prejudiced and narrow minded and - unlike Severus - never made exceptions or changed his mind about anyone. All Slytherins are bad, always, if you are James. And, in the Potterverse, you are born Slytherin. It's not something you choose. So James is every bit as racist as Severus ever was. Again, the difference is that he never changed his opinions.

Just my two cents!
[info]spikesminx wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 03:31 pm (UTC)
We never see James (or Harry) change; we never see him sorry for anything he does or any harm he causes.

I think I already pointed this out; the book isn't about Snape or Marauders. I don't think I have to repeat what I said about that.

And James' choices get him, and his wife, killed. They orphan his son and get his best friend sent to jail for 12 years.

Yes, Peter was the traitor, not James. But James turned down Dumbledore as secret keeper because of *his* prejudice. He misjudged Peter (and I do wonder what caused Peter to go to the Death Eaters in the first place.) He had no back up plan and didn't even have his wand in his hand when Voldemort came calling.


Oh, wow. You wonder what turned Peter to Death Eaters in the first place? Hey, maybe he abused him too! Or even worse, neglected him! That's totally an excuse to kill his family! And poor Peter decided that he'd get better treatment with the Death Eaters!

He had no back up plan, he was wrong about Peter, yes. But I don't understand how this makes him any worse. He trusted his friends, painfully so. Call him an idiot or a naive fool, hell I did, but this is the worst thing you can say about him here.

Also, Lily didn't have a back up plan too. It's not like they never got her opinion, she wasn't a victim of James' decisions.

That the Death Eaters offered Severus safety and belonging; that they welcomed him when no one else would, does of course, point to a weakness in Severus's character. But I repeat, he left them (and to leave is a death sentence, and takes great courage) of his own will. To my mind, Severus and Regulus are the only true heroes in all this saga, for precisely that reason. They were able to say to themselves: I was wrong. I have to do something to correct the harm I have done. And then they went and did it.

Yes. I know that Severus showed great courage. Of course it points to a weakness in his character, I know that. Oh, and you forgot Dumbledore, he went through pretty much the same path as Severus and Regulus.

We see this in canon. When do we ever see James apologize to anyone or correct any of the harm he did? And he did harm. The Marauders and Dumbledore between them may well have driven young Severus to the Death Eaters.

I'm saying this for the last time, the book is about Harry Potter. Yes, maybe they have "driven" Snape to the Death Eaters. But again, this is an excuse. You can't have any kind of excuse for joining Death Eaters. "My father didn't love me" or "I was bullied" doesn't count. That's why Snape fucked up at this point in his life and that's why he's tragic: He didn't have any kind of excuse. I wouldn't count anything as an excuse if someone joined KKK. Because this implies that he could join an organization that killed and tortured people if something in his life went wrong. Doesn't work that way. I understand why Snape did it, and I feel sympathy for him but I won't excuse it and say part of the blame was on James' or Dumbledore's or whomever's shoulders. If you join a racist group, you're responsible of it, the end. And in the end, he stepped up, risked his life to save Lily and then later Harry. He showed great courage, as well as a soul-crashing remorse over what he had done. He's in every way, a great character, but even at his best, he still has some flaws. And I love him that way, though I don't know about other people.

But James' abusive behaviors towards Lily are very serious, and I do wish you could realize that. And there is no indication at all that he ever changed. I, too, can see him as a date rapist, and of the sort who would never realize he'd done anything wrong.

Lily would never date a rapist, let alone marry him. No damsel in distress here, she has a wand and a pretty good brain.
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[info]spikesminx wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 03:32 pm (UTC)
Let me be very clear here. You dislike Snape because he joined a racist organization. Fair enough. But do you see that James is every bit as racist, in his way, as Severus? He is extremely prejudiced and narrow minded and - unlike Severus - never made exceptions or changed his mind about anyone. All Slytherins are bad, always, if you are James. And, in the Potterverse, you are born Slytherin. It's not something you choose. So James is every bit as racist as Severus ever was.

No, let me be clear here, I love Snape. Seriously, who wouldn't? I enjoy reading essays about him, I have a batshit load of personal canon for him in my mind. And no, I don't see that James was racist. Sorry, but then Snape would be too even when he was older. Because in JKR's world, you are born Gryffindor. And just like Slytherins, there are exceptions about Gryffindors too, but only a few. Peter for Gryffindors, Regulus and Severus for Slytherins, and maaaybe Malfoys. James bullied and thought Slytherins were bad and that makes him a racist? Then Severus bullied Gryffindors like Neville and Harry because he thought Gryffindors weren't any good.

Again, the difference is that he never changed his opinions.

The book isn't about Snape, again.

But his politics were quite definitely better than Severus's when the boys were 16. No question about that. Severus, to my mind, had the advantage when the boys were 20, having changed his politics for the better. So yes, his change was more serious and deeper than James'. That is why he is, to my mind, a better person. He grew up, at least somewhat. From what we see in canon, James never did. I'm not at all sure he had the capacity to.

Yeah, see this is why we're arguing here. We don't see anything in canon, Sirius and Remus' words may not be plausible when it comes to James, so it all comes down to the fact if you think "he had the capacity" to. It's subjective because I for one, would believe that Snape had the capacity to change even if JKR didn't redeem him in DH. I do believe that James would, if there was more page time, but alas, there weren't. You hate James or think he's not a likeable character, good for you. I don't. This is getting wanky, and I hate HP wank, so I hate I'll drop it.

Divided the comment in two because it was too long <_< Stupid HP and stupid HP wank.
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 13th, 2008 10:48 pm (UTC)
Thank you!
Thanks, Mary. It's nice to have another voice of support on this issue. Do you happen to know if there is an article (or more) about James and the abusive personality profile? Or was it just here and there in comments and threads on Snapedom? If one hasn't been written, I just might have to write it. ;-)

Anyway, I only have one minor quibble with your comment: I don't like the usage of "racist" to apply to the prejudices of Severus and James. I think saying they were both "prejudiced" is more precise; see my latest essay on Snapedom for more exposition of that theme. I've also posted a couple more comments in this thread that you'll probably want to read, FYI. Holy crap, it's going to be a busy summer of writing. Must make sure to make time for the NOVEL....!!!
[info]randomneses wrote:
Jun. 15th, 2008 02:12 am (UTC)
But James' abusive behaviors towards Lily are very serious, and I do wish you could realize that. And there is no indication at all that he ever changed. I, too, can see him as a date rapist, and of the sort who would never realize he'd done anything wrong.

...I have no words.

He is extremely prejudiced and narrow minded and - unlike Severus - never made exceptions or changed his mind about anyone. All Slytherins are bad, always, if you are James. And, in the Potterverse, you are born Slytherin. It's not something you choose. So James is every bit as racist as Severus ever was.

Rivlary on where you sleep at night =/= racism.
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[info]fayzbub wrote:
Jun. 15th, 2008 01:35 am (UTC)
"...doesn't suggest that aspect of him changed in a fundamental way. He was just improving his surface presentation."
This put me in mind of Ron Weasley in DH. To win over Hermione, he used a book given to him by Fred and George on how to get any girl. It shows that even the thickest of characters can learn how to be charming when they want something. But remember that Ron walked out on Harry and Hermione when the going got tough (and we've only got his word for it that he wanted to return immediately). I think that James wanted Lily, and bullying Snape wasn't going to endear him to her, no matter that the childhood friends were no longer on speaking terms. So James made an effort not to appear like a bully when Lily was around, but as Sirius assures Harry in OotP, he *still did* bully Snape. That's the point, I think. He didn't fundamentally change his character at all, he just hid the nastier aspects from the girl he wanted.
And also, I feel that Peter Pettigrew was probably on the receiving end of James' abusive personality as well, at least until he learned to fawn and slobber all over him. So can we really blame Peter's character flaw that he was a coward and he chose a bigger, tougher bully to fawn upon? What would have happened if Peter had not met James? Would he have been a *better* person, in that he would have escaped abuse and not developed his particular character flaws to such an extreme degree that he'd join the DE. In that case, you can say that, as Peter's information led to the death of James and Lily, James bought it on himself by being such an a*****e.
BTW, I've got to thank you guys and this discussion: I've had a couple of plot bunnies born from it!
Alison
[info]bohemianspirit wrote:
Jun. 15th, 2008 09:04 pm (UTC)
This put me in mind of Ron Weasley in DH. To win over Hermione, he used a book given to him by Fred and George on how to get any girl. It shows that even the thickest of characters can learn how to be charming when they want something.

Oh, hey, it's the Gryffindor Way! ;-) Well, they do seem to be the politicians of the Wizarding World, rumors of Slytherin ambition notwithstanding.

I think that James wanted Lily, and bullying Snape wasn't going to endear him to her, no matter that the childhood friends were no longer on speaking terms. So James made an effort not to appear like a bully when Lily was around, but as Sirius assures Harry in OotP, he *still did* bully Snape. That's the point, I think. He didn't fundamentally change his character at all, he just hid the nastier aspects from the girl he wanted.

Exactly. That's exactly what I was saying. And it's not because I wanted him to turn out that way; I was pretty horrified, in fact. But there it is. And JKR admires it.

*would headdesk, but not into masochism*

And also, I feel that Peter Pettigrew was probably on the receiving end of James' abusive personality as well, at least until he learned to fawn and slobber all over him.

And even then it looks like he was the barely-tolerated butt of jokes and ridicule. Christ, the whole series is a manual in emotional abuse.

BTW, I've got to thank you guys and this discussion: I've had a couple of plot bunnies born from it!

Hee hee. Unfortunately, the only plot bunny I've gotten is the one about Severus listening to ABBA... and that bunny is looking at me and saying no bleeping way...! But it has reminded me that I wanted to start acquring some reference articles and books on the subject of bullying and abuse, and education about the same. It'd make a good Snapedom essay, for sure. As would an essay analyzing James as an abusive personality, but I'm sure that's already been done--would you know if such an article (or articles) exists, and where?